Sarah Spreitzer: Welcome back listeners to dotEDU Global Voices, a short series highlighting the experiences and insights of women leaders in higher education. I'm Sarah Spreitzer, vice president and chief of staff for Government Relations here at the American Council on Education. And I'm joined by my amazing colleague, Devorah Lieberman, who is senior advisor to the president's office here at ACE and also holds a senior leadership position at the IAUP, the International Association of University Presidents, where she helped to edit the book that contains the interviews with the people we're talking to in this short series. Hi, Devorah, how are you?
Devorah Lieberman: Oh, I'm delighted and honored to be with you, Sarah. Thank you.
Sarah Spreitzer: [inaudible 00:00:51]. Yeah, it's great to see you. I'm really excited about this second episode in our short series. I would really encourage all of our listeners to go back and to listen to the first episode of this series, if you haven't had a chance to do that. We talked to Gülsün Sağlamer, who is the former rector of the Istanbul Technical University, a very old institution in the country of Turkey where she was the very first female rector and in fact only the third female rector in all of Turkey. She talked a lot to us about being a female rector in a Turkey where it's not common to have female rectors, also about creating mentorship opportunities, which I found really interesting.
And so if you haven't listened to that episode, I hope our listeners will go back and check it out. But today we are talking to someone a bit closer to home, Sue Cunningham, the president of the Council for the Advancement and Support of Education. And Devorah, Sue is British, but she's based here in the United States.
Devorah Lieberman: Yes, she is. And I believe our listeners are going to enjoy and learn from Sue as much as they did from listening to Gülsün. As you said, Sue is the president, the CEO for the Council for Advancement and Supportive Education. Everybody refers to it as CASE. CASE supports over 3,000 schools, colleges, and universities worldwide in developing their integrated advancement work, and they serve over 80 countries.
Sarah Spreitzer: Wow.
Devorah Lieberman: Yeah, it's amazing. Sue has been the CEO since March 2015, and she just has such a fascinating history because prior to... or fascinating biography. Prior to becoming the president of CASE, she was the principal for advancement at the University of Melbourne where she raised over $500 million. And advancement officers that are listening to this, don't feel like you each have to raise over $500 million.
And interestingly, before she went into higher education, she had a career in theater, arts, and culture. So she's such a well-rounded individual. She's the perfect CEO. And as we worked on her chapter, and it's interesting because the book has 10 chapters, all separate female presidents, rectors, or chancellors, and the common themes that came across through all these chapters you'll hear when you listen to Sue's podcast because she talks about her own resilience, she talks about having had an executive coach for decades and how it's not just a one and done, but this continuity with a coach and a mentor has helped her be successful as a CEO and a female CEO, and that part of her goal in life and in her professional career has been lifting others. So, I look forward to having all of us listen to Sue Cunningham.
Sarah Spreitzer: Thanks, Devorah. Let's turn to that conversation now.
Sue, thank you so much for being on this podcast and talking to me and Devorah. Can you tell us a little bit about CASE for our listeners who may not be familiar with the organization, and then also how did you get to where you are today as the leader of CASE?
Sue Cunningham: Well, thank you for your warm welcome, Sarah and Devorah, lovely to see you again, and really appreciate all of your leadership and your inspiration. And the contribution to the book that you referred to was a really wonderful opportunity to do some reflection actually. And it was also brilliant to read your introduction and summary and also the experiences of the other women leaders that you engage. So it's a pleasure to be here with you guys.
So in terms of CASE, as Sarah, you kindly indicated, we are the Council for Advancement and Support of Education. We are 50 years old this year. It's our birthday, and in fact we're coming up to the anniversary of the first day that people started working at CASE, which was the 2nd of December, so we're looking forward to that.
CASE was founded by two other associations, one for alumni relations and one for public affairs. So we work now with professionals and institutional leaders working in the space of what we broadly describe as educational advancement, and that's alumni relations, communications, fundraising, marketing, and a whole series of other types of engagement combined. And what particularly excites me about CASE is we're working with institutions in 80 countries around the world. We have about 3,000 institutional members who are schools and colleges and universities. And within them there are about 100,000 professionals.
And what's really interesting is when one looks at the book that was published for our 50th anniversary this year, when we began, we were about 1800-member institutions, and in them, there were just under 20,000 professionals. So yes, our membership has grown over 50 years, but my goodness, the profession has grown. I'd say it's grown by more than five times. So that's phenomenal.
So that's not an unhelpful introduction to my pathway. So like many people you will meet will tell you that they fell into this world. I went to college, I did performing arts. I thought I wanted to act. Fortunately, I realized during my degree that acting was not how I could pursue my love of theater. And when I left and got my degree, I went to work in theater, but as a stage manager, and I promised myself, if ever I was sitting in the stage manager's prompt corner queuing a show and thinking I wish it was me on the stage, I'd go for it. But fortunately, that moment never happened.
I worked in stage management for about half a dozen years. I started to notice that there weren't many other people doing this work as they were approaching 30 because it's pretty full on and intense. Despite loving it, I then moved into arts administration.
So my first role was in a photographic gallery in Wales in the United Kingdom where fundraising was a part of my job, as was marketing and communications and a number of other areas. And I discovered a love of it. And I then moved into fundraising for a set of museums across Wales, 10 museums, setting up fundraising for them after they'd been in existence for over 100 years. And then my journey took me to the University of St. Andrews where I led external relations, and the University of Oxford where I worked for five years at a college, Christ Church, and five years at the university leading development and campaign to raise 1.25 billion pounds. And then I went to the University of Melbourne in Australia where I was vice principal for Advancement and launched their first significant campaign in 60 years. And we raised just under 500 million Australian dollars by the time I left.
CASE was my beacon from the get-go when I got to St. Andrews having not worked in the university sector. My father was an academic, so I asked him how to navigate working in the university. But for 18 years, CASE drew me in as a member, as a volunteer. And because CASE is a global organization, whether I was working in Scotland or England or Australia, CASE was a constant. And so when the position came up leading the organization, and I'd been on a program at Columbia University the year before a leadership program, where one of the takeaways was if you want to lead an organization, you have to care deeply about it. I could think of no organization I cared more deeply about than CASE.
So I moved to Washington, DC, over nine and a half years ago now from Melbourne, Australia, to take on this role, and I still pinch myself every other day, my arm is quite bruised, because it was such an incredible organization, and I'm so honored to be able to lead it.
Sarah Spreitzer: Well, we're very lucky in the association world to have you at the helm of CASE. And Sue, were you the first female president of CASE or were you the first woman in any of those leadership roles that you talked about? And can you talk about anything that really stood out in your tenure as you kind of grew into your career?
Sue Cunningham: That's a really interesting question. So one of my memories... So at CASE I'm not the first woman. In fact, the first president was a woman, someone called Alice Beeman, who was remarkable, and she led with a real fairness and transparency, and it's been brilliant as we've been going through our 50th anniversary year learning more and more and more about her. And one of the vice presidents that followed her, Virginia Carter Smith who was a real inspiration and founded our magazine, which is still going and was also the inspiration for scholarships that still survive today, which is fabulous.
But I do remember when I was at St. Andrews and I went in as deputy director of external relations, and the director of External Relations was a man. And I remember about three months in I discovered that there was a program at St. Andrews for women leaders. And I remember asking him if I could go on it, and he looked at me and he said, "Not until there's a program for men leaders, male leaders." This was probably about April of the year I started. In May, he left, and three months later I found myself in his chair.
But so that was one of my early experiences of this sort of dissonance about the opportunities for women and the opportunities for women to learn and to grow. I think as far as I can remember, that's the only moment I felt I sort of hit a ceiling because of my gender. It may have happened without me being aware of it.
Or I guess another when I was at St. Andrews, also at St. Andrews, was of course golf is big. The head of the Royal and Ancient, which is the supremo golf or golfing organization was on our campaign board. And yet to meet him at the clubhouse in his office, I almost had to sort of slink in, go up the stairs without anyone seeing me because women weren't allowed in the building or to join the Royal and Ancient for that matter.
Devorah Lieberman: So, at times it may be that others are reminding… you're not thinking, oh, female, that gender is such an issue that others remind you of that gender is a stand, that there's something... the perception that others are reminding you about your gender as opposed to you thinking about it 24/7.
So a quick example, when I was first introduced at the University of La Verne to the group of faculty, I wasn't thinking of my gender, I was thinking of the introduction, and I was introduced as the first female president and the first president who has long hair and gets her nails done. That's how I was introduced. And so I was reminded of the gender being at the fore as opposed to my vision, my experiences, and my skills. So you brought up being reminded about gender as well. Do you have other examples or anything you want to highlight?
Sue Cunningham: I think that story is quite something. So if I fast-forward a few years from St. Andrews, and I was development director at Christ Church, which is one of the 39 colleges in Oxford. And Christ Church only started admitting women in 1979. This is a college that was founded in 1542, so there was quite a... Now it's far from unique. There are many colleges in Oxford that were all men until the 1970s and '80s, so it is far from unique.
But I remember talking with one of the staff there who'd worked there for 20 or 30 years, and he was in charge of what's described in the college as the senior common room. And I asked him to share with me the biggest changes he'd seen during his time at college. And he said, "Well, it's women joining the governing body," which I was on. I was the board of the college. And I said, "And what do you think about that?" And he said, "Well, I'm kind of not sure that women sort of think they can do it all, but I'm really not sure they can." I just thought that was sort of anachronistic.
But also I joined the college in 2001, but when women first arrived in 1979, apparently, so the colleges is called colloquially the House because the Latin name is Aedes Christi. And apparently when the first 23 women arrived in the first year, they were admitted in '79, there were men standing around Tom Quad, the central quadrangle in the college, with signs up saying the place for women is in the home, not the House. That was 1979.
Sarah Spreitzer: Wow. And Sue, I mean, CASE has an international membership. So since you started your career, have you seen changes in kind of how women have been accepted in leadership roles, especially in the area of higher education, not only in the U.S., but in the other countries that you work with?
Sue Cunningham: Certainly, that's true. If I think about the leaders of educational institutions, whether they be universities or schools or colleges, and also when I look at the leaders in the field of advancement, I think one is seeing far more women than one did before. And if one looks at the profession of advancement, proportionately in almost every part of the world, the majority of advancement professionals are women. And yet historically, there are majority of leaders were not. I think that's really, really shifted. But I think there's still a way to go. I think there's still a way to go in terms of why the leadership isn't 50-50 or in terms of presidents or leaders of advancement.
But certainly the stories I was telling a couple of moments ago, I mean, that I was on the governing body at Christ Church, that I really didn't have any sense apart from the examples I've offered of being held back because of my gender. So I think things have shifted pretty profoundly in my experience.
Sarah Spreitzer: And Sue, can you talk a bit about early challenges that you faced in your career? I mean, you talked about making that shift from a completely different field, right, being a stage manager into the world of advancement. I find that fascinating. I myself switched from doing my bachelor's in anthropology and my master's in medieval archeology...
Sue Cunningham: Oh, wow.
Sarah Spreitzer: ... into higher education advocacy, right? And I think a liberal arts degree, right? I strongly believe a liberal arts degree is the best thing you can do. It'll get you anywhere. But can you talk a bit about what kind of challenges did you face when you started in advancement? How did you face those challenges? Any stories you want to share with us?
Sue Cunningham: Sure. So a few reflections. I think one of the joys of being a stage manager in your 20s is these are roles with, I mean, not by and large life or death responsibilities, but there are serious responsibilities nevertheless. Although having said that, if you're working on Peter Pan and you're involved in flying Peter Pan, then it does potentially have life impact if it goes wrong.
But I think one of the things that it really equipped me well with, one was just organizational ability because you have to be there from 8:00 in the morning till after the show goes down at night and be there as a responsible person navigating and working with everyone from the actors to the crew to everybody else.
And I remember an occasion actually when I was doing a touring production, and we were in Glasgow, and the guys in the sound box and the guys in the lighting really didn't like each other, so they'd organize, they were on different sound loops, and when you were queuing the show, you therefore had two people speaking to you at once because they didn't like each other and didn't want to talk to each other. So navigating complexity and building diplomatic skills were things that really came out of my stage management experience. And of course the love of theater, which remains till this day.
So when I started working in universities, of course, one thing that universities are richly full of is people who are deeply impressive and deeply inspirational and deeply committed to their work. And you have all sorts of people from people who are really keen to work with you, to others who are a bit more standoffish, and why would I spend my time with you and why would I commit or share with you who I'm working with from a donation perspective or a whole series of other things besides. So learning how to navigate that, I think my previous experience was really helpful in that regard, and just having huge respect, but at the same time being able to navigate and negotiate.
I think the other piece that I'd reflect on early on when I was in St. Andrews, I remember going and meeting with all of the academic leaders very early on, and we were preparing for a campaign. And basically as I went in, I was seen as the ticket to raising lots of money for whatever they wanted to raise money for. And in a sort of inclination to please mode, I would leave the room with long lists of everything they wanted to raise money for and the expectation that within a matter of months I would come back with bags of money for their priorities.
And that was a really helpful lesson in learning about managing expectation and learning that by and large, as remarkable as advancement professionals are, they are most successful if they're doing their work in partnership with their academic colleagues. And that one isn't going to raise money for every single thing that everybody wants you to raise money for. It's actually going to be about building relationships to secure investment for the priorities of the institution. And there has to be partnerships with potential donors in delivering on that.
So I think that was a sobering lesson because then after six months I ceased to be flavor of the month and people became a little less kind to me. And I've managed to navigate through that and build a more set of serious relationships, which informed me well for my transition to Oxford and then Melbourne. So I think those were two illustrations of learning.
The one thing I didn't learn in St. Andrews was to play golf [laughter]. I did took some lessons in Melbourne, but people tell me I was crazy because the green fees were like 60 pounds a year if you lived in St. Andrews. So it was mad that I didn't, but I didn't.
Devorah Lieberman: So Sue, one of the things that struck me deeply in our chapter interview and then in the final copy of your chapter in the book was how important mentoring and coaching was to you early on. And when I first became president and the board said, "Do you want to have an executive coach?" I remember thinking, "Oh, will I look weak like I can't do the job and I need an executive coach?" And so, I wrestled with that, and you did not wrestle with that. And now that I've retired from the presidency, I have so many predominantly women presidents that have come to me and said, "Will you be my executive coach?" And they don't see having a coach as a weakness, but actually a strength. So can you talk about in your ascendancy and how you feel about that today?
Sue Cunningham: Thank you. So the first time I had an executive coach was when I was still at Melbourne, but it wasn't as an outcome of the program at Columbia Business School. And I met the executive coach, Rachel Ciporen, who became my executive coach for 10 years. And when I got the job at CASE, I asked that I continue to work with her, and that's indeed what came to pass.
But our first interactions was within the context of a four-week senior leadership program and her feeding back some of the key instruments around 360s and so on. I found that incredibly valuable, particularly when you find yourself in the metaphorical corner office where you are able to have frank conversations with somebody without any fear of... Of course, you can be criticized in a supportive way, but you can say anything. And when you're leading an organization, you cannot talk to members of your team in the same way that you did when you were of that team. When you're leading the team, whilst I'm keen to be a transparent leader and a consultative leader, there are things you simply can't share, and so being able to do that.
You talked a little earlier about imposter syndrome, and I remember when I first started working with Rachel, and imposter syndrome, I still experience it, but I remember I would regularly after being busy all day, doing email into the evening, and then finally sitting down at nine o'clock at night and putting my feet up on the sofa, and I'd suddenly in my mind would be the penultimate email I'd sent, and being convinced that I'd said something rude, offensive, sent it to the wrong person, and this would happen to me frequently. And I would leap off of the sofa to my husband rolling his eyes, leap back to the study, open my computer, and find it was all fine.
And this is just a small illustration of one of the many learnings I had with Rachel, which was saying, Sue, acknowledge that there's this little person who will tell you you've done this thing, acknowledge that they're there and say, "I know you do this to me. I know I have this little voice. I'm going to put you back in a box because the evidence supports that this really hasn't often been true. So I hear you, I know I do this to myself, but I'm going to put you in that box." And that was really helpful feedback.
The other thing she shared with me early on was this wonderful poem, which progresses, but it's basically I walked down the street, I fall in the hole, I climb out of the hole, I walk down the street. Next chapter is I walk down the street, I see the hole, I fall in the hole, I get out of the hole. And then by the end of it, I see the hole, I know it's there, I walk around the hole. But we have to identify a challenge that we're dealing with, recognize, move it from the subconscious to the conscious, and then once it's conscious, think about how we're going to tackle it.
Sarah Spreitzer: That's incredibly helpful. I want to carry that with myself thinking about you learn so much to not fall into the hole, but to walk around it. And I guess building off that, Sue, I mean, you've obviously learned how to walk around those holes.
Sue Cunningham: Sometimes [laughter].
Sarah Spreitzer: Is there an accomplishment either personally or professionally that you look back on and say, I got it right, I'm very, very proud of that work that you want to share with us?
Sue Cunningham: Well, I guess one, I remember when I applied for this job at CASE and was working with a search firm, Korn Ferry. A lovely person called Paul Chou at the time, and Paul shared with me... Well, I said to Paul, "Listen, I know that every previous president of CASE has had an American accent and has culturally been American." I say that because I was born in California, so I am a dual national. But I said, "If the expectation that interviewers, someone's going to be sitting there and be sort of prepared to be very complimentary about themselves, that's counter-cultural. As someone who's ostensibly British, my inclination is to critique myself rather than to speak highly of myself."
So with that caveat, I guess a piece of learning for me, so as part of our first strategic plan at CASE, one of the key messages from many that we spoke to in the process of developing it was that we should really review the governance structure of CASE.
So when I arrived in 2015, CASE had 11 different fiduciary boards around the world that had developed over what was then our 44 years of history or whatever. So what we then did by 2017 was determined to take a look at it. We had a group of senior volunteers, we took them as part of our 10th anniversary celebrations to Singapore. We had a day and a half while we locked everybody in a room and came up with the design, and then spent two years consulting, collaborating, seeking input from all of those 11 boards in order to deliver, by a vote from the membership with 101 different Quora, a vote in May of 2019, which resulted in a shift by the middle of the 2020.
I think for me, one of the senses of achievement with that is I'm not the most patient of leaders. If you'd asked me a few years ago how long this should have taken, I'd have said maybe give it six months or a year. It took three years to actually deliver it formally, and delivering the culture, we're still doing, we're still doing. But someone said to me a couple of years ago, now that we just have one fiduciary board and a series of regional advisory councils and local district cabinets, they said, "I'm not sure CASE would've got through the pandemic if we hadn't done that work," because if you'd have had to consult with 11 different fiduciary boards before you made any fiscal decisions in March and April of 2020, CASE may have sunk. But because we had that structure, because we could make those decisions, we actually, thank heavens due to many caring and thoughtful leaders, came through it and came through it well.
But I think that was learning patience, learning the importance of consultation and collaboration and building consensus has definitely been part of my journey. And I think several members of my team sitting in the office today would roll their eyes if I said, I've learned better to be patient. But I think I have learned a bit better to be a bit more patient.
Sarah Spreitzer: Sue, can you tell us, is there one piece of advice that you wish someone had given you at the start of your career, at the start of taking over as the CEO at CASE? One thing that you want to share with our audience that you wish somebody had told you?
Sue Cunningham: That's a really great question. So I think there are a few things. I think one is about realizing as a leader that it's not critical that you have the skill sets of everybody you're leading. And I can't remember when I had that wake up moment, but of course, it may well have been when I moved from Christ Church actually where I was leading a team of six to the university where I was going to lead a team of 150. And the reality is I was leading people who are expert in areas that I hadn't really had much to do with before, and feeling comfortable in that space, realizing actually the most powerful kind of team to have around you is people with much greater skills and expertise than you have.
And the chairman of my campaign board at Christ Church, so David Scully, when I was leaving from leading a team of six to this much bigger team, and I asked him what piece of a advice he would give me about leading a much bigger team? And he said, "Only do only the things that you can do."
So recognizing that, for example, when I was at Oxford and we were planning a big trip to Hong Kong and to China and to Singapore and so on early on in my time there, and there was a team working on this trip, and I remember going in and joining one of their meetings thinking, "I'm really good at organizing. I can come and help. I can do this." And someone turned to me about 10 minutes in and said, "Sue, we've got this." And he was absent... So recognizing you don't need to have all the skill sets of everybody around you. In fact, if you do, you haven't hired the right people to be around you.
Devorah Lieberman: Right. Sue, that comment that you just made about not having to have all the skill sets, one of the things that I was so struck... that struck me deeply in all of these interviews is this common theme that you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You have to recognize that you have to listen to everybody, and you have to make the final decision, but you surround yourself with people who actually have had more experience and know more than you in particular areas. And that's coupled with the literature and the women in this book all talking about the importance of being a humble leader, meaning it's not about you, it's about your institution and the humility that you bring with you to this role. And Sue, from the day I met you several years ago, I think you embody that humble leadership, and you do surround yourself with people who have more experience in particular areas and that become part of your team.
Sue Cunningham: No, I'm fortunate to be surrounded by wonderful people and really expert people and people who are comfortable. And this is a really big ask. To ask people in your team to give it to you straight is a huge ask, and in some contexts, counter-cultural, and yet I'm incredibly grateful that I do have colleagues who are able and willing to do that. And I hope I demonstrate my appreciation and respect by receiving criticism in an open and undefensive way. Because I think if you ask for that and then you're defensive, it sort of defeats the purpose of the exercise.
When I was at Melbourne University and we were preparing for a campaign launch and we were in the midst of organizing the launch, and one of my team members asked me to come and speak to the team about what I would hope the campaign will launch would feel like or look like. And he said in the meeting, this is a chap called Ross Coller, who's still a good friend. He said, "Sue, if you could come up with three words for the campaign launch, what would it be?" And this was in front of about 20 people who were planning it. And I said, "Inspiring, magnificent, and perfect."
And after the meeting, he followed me back to my office and he said, "Sue, do not use the word perfect again. It's completely unattainable, and you're setting people up to fail." And I just thought, I was sort of for a moment astounded, but Australians are really good at being direct. And then I thought, "No, actually you're right. You are spot on. I think aiming for perfection, aspiring for perfection, but saying I want it to be perfect is not reasonable." So one can always learn from colleagues if you give them license to tell you what they really think.
Devorah Lieberman: When I was a professor, the provost at the university came to me and said, "I want you to do more leadership. I would like you to be in this other role as well as being a professor." And then the president said to me, "I'd like you to continue." And then when I was a vice provost, a president from another university said, "I'd like you to consider being my provost and applying for that position." So for me, I think others saw potential in me at times that I didn't necessarily see in myself. So do you have any specific examples of others seeing potential in you before you recognize it on your own?
Sue Cunningham: Interestingly, so I've been really fortunate, really, really fortunate that the majority of people before this role that I've reported to and my board chairs here have been fabulous as well, so I'm not excluding them, but when I was not leading an organization, I've had wonderful people to report into.
And I remember when I was in the process of interviewing for the job at Christ Church, for the development director job at Christ Church, this Oxford college, and the person I was reporting into, David Hine, we were sitting in the sort of final stage when they'd offered me the job and he said, "And you know, Sue, within five years, I see you doing this job for the whole University of Oxford." And I thought he was out of his mind. Literally five years to the day I got the job leading development for the whole of the University of Oxford.
Also, if I think back to St. Andrews, I remember my team was responsible for organizing all of the arrangements around the honorary degree ceremonies. And the president of the university at that time, or the vice chancellor as it's called in the UK, as we were sitting and we were talking through our regular one-on-one, and he was saying, "So how are we doing with the honorary degrees and so on?" And I said, "Everything's up and running." And he said, "And how about people giving speeches?" He said, "Obviously, I've invited everyone to give speeches for the honorary graduates." But he said, "If you had a choice, which one would you want to do?" And it was like that I'm heading up external relations. I'm not a senior academic. And he said, "No, which one would you want to do?" And I said, "Well, one of the few people I've heard on the list is JK Rowling." And he said, "Well, why don't you do hers?" And I almost fell off my seat.
And so X months later, I found myself standing in front of a thousand or more graduates in the graduation hall of St. Andrews University giving the laureation address for JK Rowling. And it was her first honorary degree. And it was incredibly humbling and wonderful.
And my son, who was at the time probably eight years old, seven years old, and who was the sort of classic, had discovered readings through Harry Potter. I mean, it was the classic reading the book with a torch under his bed… when I'd left him to go to sleep. And I remember mentioning... He was sitting up in the balcony, I can still see it. And I remember mentioning him in the context of my laureation address, and he ducked, he was so embarrassed that I had named him.
Sarah Spreitzer: Well, that's probably a lovely story to end our conversation on. And thank you so much, Sue, for talking to us. And Devorah, thank you for being my co-host.
Before we sign off on this episode, I wanted to take a minute to mention the ACE Women's Network. It's an amazing resource that connects and supports women in higher education all across the country, helping them develop their leadership skills and advance in their careers. If you're looking for a community that's all about mentorship, growth, and supporting women, definitely check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes, but you can find more information at www.acenet.edu/womensnetwork.
And thank you so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe and stay tuned for more stories of global women leaders. I'm Sarah Spreitzer, and we'll see you next time on dotEDU Global Voices.
Sue Cunningham: Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Devorah. Thank you both.